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O_MEG_A
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Topic: I need your advice :-)
    Posted: 08 November 2018 at 5:23am
To whom it may concern,

Hello and thanks for your efforts.
Recently I have posted an art work here:
http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/123885.htm
Yet unfortunately it is denied from entering gallery, I know there is a careless use of colors yet I believe it could be considered as an "intentionally messy placement of pixels" and it could be allowed into the gallery.
I hope I am right! either I am ready to hear your advice

Best Regards
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2018 at 5:38am
It doesn't look intentional, it just looks like you scribbled the shadows and hair details in with a 1px pencil without care for the shapes they make up. Intentionally messy placement would be cases where the pixels create a meaningful texture or contribute to the story told by the image, which doesn't appear to be the case here.

In addition to the noisy lines, the piece overall feels unfinished because the hand has a different approach to colours from the rest of it, looking like it's been sketched in but not polished any.

Fortunately, both of these issues should not be too hard to fix, the piece just needs some clean-up/polish, not any major overhaul.

Lastly, this piece looks like you used a reference image, but you didn't provide any credit.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2018 at 6:02am
Tanx for your fast reply :-)
I have got issues as follow:
1- I am sorry but I thought I have created meaningful texture-at least in my own opinion- especially on the right side of the face, nose and left chick and neck, tongue, fangs, nails, etc.
2-Do artists have different styles?(I mean I am still searching for a style and I don't have a unique style for myself so I thought not paying too much attention to the hands would be a part of my style :-)
3- Unfortunately I don't know how to fix it, as it took hours for me to finish it the way I like! and I am a newbie pixel artist -though I always loved it and had tried it with Microsoft paint(on windows XP)- I am using grafx2 now and again unfortunately I am not a professional user of this software! So, I don't feel I can fix the issues u addressed easily :-( I think it will take hours!
4-it is about your last issue, yes the image is created by altering another image -the lady is turned into a vampire- and it is done by myself! now I wonder who I have to credit? myself? or the lady? or the photographer?

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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2018 at 6:53am
1. Even if you intended texture, that doesn't mean it turned out that way. Art is communication, and communication is hard. What's clear to you might not be clear to people who don't know what you were going for.

2. Don't worry about "style", it's something that develops on its own whether you try to develop it or not, style is the sum of your unconscious decisions. Keep improving your work in tangible ways, and you'll eventually start noticing the commonalities that define your style. You can certainly make a stylistic element of not paying much attention to the hands, but if you make your work worse on purpose, most other people will just see it as bad work, not as a stylistic element. Instead of not paying attention to them, stylise them in a way that's clearly intentional.

3. You could start by going through and eliminating stray pixels, the lone pixels that don't convey any information. After that, you can refine the various curves so that they're less jagged. Those two steps alone would get you to a pretty solid-looking piece that would most likely be accepted to the gallery. From there, you could improve it even further through making the colours more interesting, adding anti-aliasing, etc, but none of that is necessary if you just want it in the gallery.

4. You should credit at least the photographer (crediting the model as well is good too!), and if possible, you should link to the image or the photographer's website.
Ideally, you should also have the original artists' (photographer and model, in this case) permission before sharing your derivative work, but that's often not practical, and it's usually not required.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2018 at 7:27am
Tanx again.
1.Yeah, u are totally right about "art is communication, and communication is hard"
2. I also believe style will appear by itself, yet somehow I thought it would be a good idea to finish that work like that.
3. I will try to do the things u mentioned but I don't know if I would be successful, I am such a newbie that I don't know the meaning of some of your expressions u mentioned! such as : long pixels(do u mean narrow lines?), What do u mean by "refining the curves"?, what do u mean by "less jagged"? Do u mean to have a smoother contrast? And most importantly how can I find stray pixels in grafx2, so that I can eliminate them? (I hope U understand my lack of knowledge about pixel-art and bare with me :-) )
4. Well I don't know the photographer! and I think there is no link to the manipulated image, since it is on my machine! (Well I downloaded the original image sometime ago that I cannot remember and then manipulated it and used it as a reference for my work, I also used it as a reference for my pencil drawing which u can find here:   https://www.deviantart.com/sarinov/art/Celin-770409095 and there u can find other links which eventually lead u to the model herself) but as I mentioned I already manipulated the original image, so I thought I am the only owner of manipulated image that is why I shared it without crediting, I'd be happy to know what is your suggestion?   
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2018 at 10:11am
3. lone pixels = stray pixels, pixels that are a different colour from their neighbours but which do not communicate a specific small detail. Despite the name "pixel art", pixel art is actually more about groups of pixels and the shapes they make up. Isolated single pixels should generally be avoided, except for representing small important details that are too small to represent with a shape of multiple pixels.
You can learn about jaggies and other pixel art terminology in the PJ Pixel Art Tutorial right here on the forum.

4. Even if you manipulate the image, it's still a derivative work of the original image, and you should credit the original photographer and model. If you can't track them down, that's alright, but you should link to any source you can find (such as the model's Instagram page, or better yet, the photo's page on her Instagram), and at the very least you should mention that the original image isn't (wholly) your own work. The photographer and model (and perhaps other individuals) put work into creating the original image that you were able to use as the basis for your manipulation and then your other art, they deserve credit for it, just as you deserve credit for the work you've done on the image.


Edit: Another issue is your piece uses a very large number of colours, but most of them don't contribute anything to the overall work. It's much easier to work with a smaller number of colours. It looks like you just colour-picked from the source photo whenever you needed a colour, instead of using colours you'd already chosen, or picking your colours ahead of time with purpose. That's not inherently a bad thing, but it makes your job as a pixel artist much harder.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2018 at 11:18am
Ok, I will try to make things right, but I don't know how long it will take.
First I want to read that tutorial. Thanks.
Unfortunately I still have no idea on how to fix those issues u mentioned in grafx2, do u think it would be a good idea to ask for help here? Should I create a new thread?
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2018 at 11:57am
The way to fix those issues is to take your Pencil tool, and have at it. There aren't special tools for it, it's a matter of zooming in and cleaning things up.
One specific thing that might help you in future works: don't use the 1px-wide pencil tool until near the end, when you're refining/cleaning up. It's much easier to block in the major shapes and avoid noise if you work with a larger pencil, and that helps avoid the urge to scribble.

If you need an example, here I cleaned up part of your piece and added some manual anti-aliasing.

(I got rid of some of the colours just to make editing easier. Getting rid of them doesn't necessarily make the piece better, just simpler to work with.)
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2018 at 1:28pm
That's great! I wonder U edited the whole image?
And I have a personal question: Do u use tablet? like wacom tablets? I mean I cannot imagine editing it that fast!How did u do it that fast? U use mouse only?

I made few changes u can see what I did here:

https://sta.sh/028rybfuv6kw

Do u think I am on a right path?
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2018 at 3:38pm
You're definitely on the right path! It's looking cleaner already.

I didn't edit the whole image, I'll leave that to you :] I edited that part and the rest of the nose, that's it.

Although I do own a tablet, I don't remember whether I used it while making that edit. I may have, but if anything, it would only be a minor speed boost in the clean-up stage. The real speed boost of using a tablet is during the sketching/blocking-in phase, not during this move-single-pixels around stage. For some things, using a tablet is actually slower than using a mouse.

As I mentioned before, using a larger tool is very helpful, so you can get big blobby shapes quickly, and avoid single-pixel noise. I used the Bucket Fill tool (with contiguous mode off) to quickly replace redundant colours in the entire image. I used selections (Lasso tool) in combination with Fill and large brushes to make some of the finer shapes and to limit my colour-replacements to specific areas. When making big pieces like this, save that 1px Pencil tool for the details at the very end!

I suspect the reason it's been taking you so long is because of the messy way in which you work, all that scribbling takes a lot of time! Working with shapes is much faster, and gives cleaner results.


Edit: You'll probably run into problems when you work on the hair, so here's some pre-emptive advice: don't try to draw the individual strands of hair. Think more like a painter, focus on the larger shapes of light and shadow. You can suggest the fine texture of hair through having textured boundaries between the different colours, and by having just a few individual strands here and there. The human brain is amazing at filling in detail based on a few clues, make use of that!
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2018 at 12:19am
Hi, I have done some changes on it, here is the result:
https://sta.sh/011lchw6z0up
Do u think it is acceptable for the gallery now?

Notice: I haven't done much with the hair, it just looks reasonable to me.

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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2018 at 5:39am
I think the hair will need work to be accepted, it still looks full of jaggies and noise. The highlight on her forehead (near the middle) is also still very noisy.

The top of her index finger's still standing out as unfinished, maybe soften the... shadows? outlines? on it a little? There's also an odd gap between the shadow colours on the other fingers.

You also still have some stray pixels here and there, such as on her neck and around the eye on the left.

To help you spot the strays, here I've highlighted most of them with magenta (missing some bits where there are 2+ pixels that are nonetheless noise). There may be some anti-aliasing included, but I tried to remove the AA that was selected (used a script, it can't tell the difference between AA and noise xP)
This is what I (and the mods, probably) "see" when I look at your work, this is why I keep stressing the noise. It stands out, and it doesn't look good.
If you place this image over yours, select the magenta, and then hide this image, you'll have a selection with your lone pixels.
The hair's not as bad as it looks in this image, there are just a lot of line segments that don't seem attached to anything so they feel a little noisy.
A lot of the noise also seems to be down to your use of a large number of indistinct colours, so you probably simply couldn't see that they were making a mess because the overall shape looked solid.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2018 at 6:04am
Hi, What image u are talking about? I cannot see it!
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2018 at 6:21am
Odd, it shows up for me. Here's the URL instead: https://i.imgur.com/382uirS.png
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2018 at 1:44pm
Would you take a look at it here:

or
here:
https://sta.sh/029c3i030hzp

I tried to refine those pixels u indicated.
What is your opinion now?
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2018 at 3:03pm
I'm always in favour of more clean-up, but I think it would be worth submitting this edit, it might be accepted.

Instead of submitting it anew though, you should edit the existing one. In case the pencil "Edit" button doesn't show up, you can access the edit page via its URL: http://pixeljoint.com/pixels/submit_icons.asp?id=123885 (the number at the end is the one that's in the URL of the gallery page for that artwork, so you can built this URL for any piece in your gallery).
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2018 at 12:45am
Thanks, I also like more refining but I think because I am a newbie it cause me not to see my shortcomings I believe this issue will be solved by practice and gaining more knowledge, this is why my current work looks ok to me!

By the way I have posted it using pencil "Edit" button, Yet it still is in "revision needed" status is it normal?(I thought it would change to "awaiting for approval")

Finally I have got a question for U, last time when U helped me to see stray pixels by coloring them pink(or "magenta" as u said) U mentioned that u did it by using a script! What script you were talking about? Written in which computer language? What software?
I know in grafx2 you can use scripts, do you used grafx2 for this purpose? Because I think U already told me that u use Photoshop, Aspirate and PyxelEdit is it possible to write scripts in those softwares too?
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2018 at 7:05am
I don't think that's normal, it's supposed to go back on the queue but I didn't see it there. Try again, maybe with a different filename just to be sure? (PJ's a bit weird about file names.) If that still doesn't work, you could PM a mod or ask here on the forum or in the front-page Chatterbox.

I used a Photoshop script, written in JavaScript (but it uses the Photoshop API, so it can't be easily ported to other software). Aseprite supports Lua scripting as of 1.2.10 (I'm using 1.2.9 so I haven't tried it yet), and I don't think PyxelEdit supports any scripting.

That said, I don't recommend relying on a script for dealing with isolated pixels. You should work with larger brushes and avoid scribbling, so that you can avoid creating unintended isolated pixels in the first place! Fixing stray pixels after you've already made them is time-consuming even with a script, and it's time you could be spending making your work better in other ways.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2018 at 7:37am
Thanks for the info.
My work is in "awaiting for approval" state now.
Yes U are right ,yet I believe we will never have our time under total control! things in this world are like a trap! But u know that is the very definition of being alive! - to fell in those traps I mean- :-)
(Sorry for my philosophy, by the way I'd be happy to have discussions like this with people)
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 15 November 2018 at 12:02am
Hello dear eishiya, I think my work is in "AWAITING APPROVAL" status for too long! Is this normal?

-Sorry for this post, but I didn't know whom I should ask-   
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 15 November 2018 at 6:33am
It's normal, especially for pieces that were rejected before.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 1:46am
Hello again,

1. I need some more advice but before please see my recent work here:

http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/124110.htm

or



It's chest area looks very flat! I didn't want it to look that much flat in other words I wanted it to look like a 3D object not a flat surface! How can I improve it? What are your hints or advice?

2. My work (the vampire one) is still in "waiting for approval" state, do u still think it is normal? I think it took so long!
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Quote snv Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 4:44am
The vampire looks WIP, with roughly placed pixels, especially the hair. The other artwork is unavailable:

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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 6:27am
The link's just broken, they probably forgot to set the HTTP/HTTPS thing correctly (PJ Forum's so damn weird about links), they meant this:


The Dragon Warrior should probably have a transparent background, since the solid black background doesn't serve any clear purpose.
The shading on them feels haphazard. Choose where the light is coming from, and add shadows where that light doesn't reach. Don't forget that most things are 3D, they have volume, and that's what creates shadows.

If you struggle with volume, taking the time to do some exercises with shading arrangements of simple forms like cubes and spheres may help you. Pixel art requires the same basic knowledge as any other 2D visual art, so you can use art fundamentals tutorials made for/in any medium to help you.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 6:42am
Edit: this reply is for snv

Tanx for your reply :-)

1.The vampire is done in my opinion(it is just my opinion, I don't say I am right) and yes you are right the hair might look messy, but it is what I prefer for it (I have to say maybe because I am a newbie, I cannot see it's awfulness! So, sorry but honestly it looks good to me! How else could I show scattering of light over the hair?)

2.I will give you another link :-)

https://sta.sh/01yagdcdx5vm

And the reason which prevented you from seeing my work is that it is in "waiting for approval" state, So it was my fault that I shared an improper link, yet I have to add I have already done this (Vampire case) and eishiya was able to see the link!
I don't know what trick he/she might have used but I thought maybe members with higher ranks are able to see works which are not in "waiting for approval" or "revision is needed" states.

Again I am sorry for any inconvenience that it might have produced.
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 8:43am
The reason your link didn't work had nothing to do with your work not being approved yet. It's because your URLs didn't have the http:// part, so the forum was mistakenly building links as forumURL/yourURL (which is obviously invalid) instead of http://yourURL.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 9:40am
Thanks for your reply, I have problem with shadows! How can I improve that? (I take your advice seriously) but u know I cannot figure out how shadows will mix with the colors? For example how shadows will affect the chest armor of the Dragon Warrior?
I imagined the light source is located on the left side of his body and he tilted his body a bit, but I could not figure out how shadows will affect his body.
It feels difficult for me to guess how shadows will react to the body, you know, there is no Dragon Warrior in-front of me! By the way I like the challenge it feels so good :-)
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 10:10am
Originally posted by eishiya

should probably have a transparent background, since the solid black background doesn't serve any clear purpose.



Yes U are right, I also knew that.
I created that image in grafx2 but I didn't know how to save it with transparent background, Now I know and I uploaded the new version of it with transparent background, though it took a while to see the changes!
[I feel some weirdness here]
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2018 at 5:14pm
Try not to worry about two different things at once. For now, pick either the colours OR the shadows to fix, learn about that topic, and then move on to the next issue. It's harder to learn multiple things at once.

Regarding the light: "Left" is 2D. You're depicting a 3D object, so your light source needs to exist in 3D space. Is it directly to the left? In front of the character? Behind them? Don't neglect the 3D component, it's important to figuring out the shadows.
As I mentioned earlier, if you struggle with visualising shadows, step back and practice with simple forms. Don't neglect the basics.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 25 November 2018 at 1:55am
Do u know any book or particular website which gives a thorough tutorial on shadowing? (placing shadows on an imaginary object) or creating shadows with pixels?
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 25 November 2018 at 6:53am
I'm afraid I don't, sorry. I learned shading through variations of the basic exericse I described earlier - look at simple physical forms, and draw them, and try to figure out why they look the way they do (why is one part shaded and another isn't, why is one shadow darker than another, etc).

Don't worry about creating shadows with pixels for now. Focus on understanding shadows, then you can depict them with pixels (or any other medium). Medium-specific techniques should be the last step. If you're not comfortable with pixel art yet, work in a medium you do understand, such as high-res digital art or pencil on paper. You don't need mastery of any medium for this, the goal isn't to make beautiful work, but to understand what it is you're drawing.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 25 November 2018 at 7:22am
Hello again, my other work "Moai" was rejected -as well as dragon warrior- from entering the gallery and I don't know why?
I think the reason for their rejection was:"exhibiting minimal effort and or poor technique"

U can see "Moai" here:


Some extra note: I created this art (Moai) using a 3d model as a reference which I made myself. So I don't think it has shadowing problem, I'd be happy if someone teach me what is wrong with the "Moai" and what determines exhibiting minimal effort or poor technique?

Best Regards
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Quote eishiya Replybullet Posted: 25 November 2018 at 7:38am
I agree, I think that's the most likely reason for the rejections.

Those two submissions had lots of jaggies (i.e. you didn't refine the shapes well), the colours were dull. The Moai's background looks like an afterthought. They're "okay" works, but they don't feel like works you put a lot of effort in. More importantly, they don't show improvement over your earlier submissions. Based on your responses in this thread, it looks like you've been struggling to improve. Have you done any of the exercises I mentioned?

Also, even though you used a reference for the Moai, the shading still doesn't look good. It's not bad, but the Moai looks soft and round rather than solid, and the juxtaposition of the shadow and highlight near the nose makes little sense. This is why I keep stressing understanding shadows. It's not enough to just copy a rendering or even a photo. If you don't understand what it is you're drawing, you're likely to get things wrong even if you're copying something, because you won't know what details are significant and what details aren't, you won't notice things like hue shifts and soft vs harsh shadows. You need to understand light and shadow, then you'll know what to pay attention to when copying, and how to depict them when drawing from your imagination.

I recall finding this tutorial helpful when I was starting out, maybe it'll help you too. That tutorial also recommends Loomis books at the end. Those are all available for free online.
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Quote O_MEG_A Replybullet Posted: 03 March 2019 at 2:37pm
Hello guys,I am back after a while and I want to know your opinion on my quick work here, because I was not sure if it would be accepted for being included in gallery I will post it here first, do u consider my work a proper pixelart?

https://sta.sh/019w5ih89upu
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